Can a K and P win against a K???

Submitted by davidetal on Thu, 07/17/2008 at 1:31am.

I thought a King and pawn would win against a King, but I couldnt find a way in this game. Did I do something wrong or, as a matter of principle, can a King successfully fend off a King and pawn? Any help gratefully recieved, thanks!

 


» posted in Endgames
 

Comments:

by gavriil23 - 45 days ago
Azerbaijan
Member Since: Sep 2008
Member Points: 62

I believe that move a5 was rong. You have to move your king into the center. and win by tsuntsvang. for example 1)... Kc62) Kd36 Kf54 3) Ke6 Ke5(tsutvang) (if g4 black win by simply f4) 4) K f3 Kd4

by gnash68 - 3 months ago
Lamitan, Basilan Philippines
Member Since: Aug 2008
Member Points: 18

I think the wrong move made was on the 36th... Instead of 36... b5, Black should play 36... a4. The idea is to restrain White's queenside pawns. With 36... a4 Black wins. White can not move his b-pawn because Black simply capture it resulting in a passed c-pawn.. If he will not move his pawn, he will be run out of King moves. The square Black should invade is b3 or d3 or c2(best) while maintaining the pawns at a4, b5 and c5. After reaching this position (pawns at a4, b5, c5 and King at c2) a breakthrough must be made at b4.

by clock - 3 months ago
San Jose, CA United States
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 210

Hey phindex wach g pawn surive  and a b pawn.  but within rare chanses,  a  and h pawns surive


by murometzyx - 4 months ago
chisinau Moldova
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 699
41... Kxc5
A win, surely?? Again, my opponent insisted it was a draw...

 

 

 

yes, it's a draw!.. because it's a pseudo-opposition.. the real opposition is in front of the pawn.. same vertical and with less tempo.. I mean with next to move for ur opponent.. that's te low, of opposition.. so, sorry you play well but you waste the advantages and winning resources on the way ..


by murometzyx - 4 months ago
chisinau Moldova
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 699

Bxf2??.. you may keep this for Bxf8 later.. after a lot of investment in the pawn for white.. because with this you just save "him" of loosing tempos.. to move the right figure - the king in oposition.. this is the theory..

until you have havy pieces on the board.. you may easiely block this "king - trip" for opposition - so the general idea was to keep figures.. and use advantages of one extra figure - bishop, by using diagonals.. than just to keel the pawn whan it reach the f8-promotion :)

Another mistake is 39... c5+!.. you loose material and initiative, c6 was enought for draw (sure)

 

 


by murometzyx - 4 months ago
chisinau Moldova
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 699

the sacrifice was wrong, I mean the calculation for it.. normaly it easy to continue:

32. .. a5! just to prevent b4.. but even 33.b4 Bxb4 34.axb4 Rxb4 make your position much better than after Bxf2(??) anyway.. 

 


by mueller - 4 months ago
Corvallis United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 139

in general try to get your king in front of your pawns in a situation like that. it will give your flexibility and control.


by pskogli - 4 months ago
Drammen Norway
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 16

Pawn endgames is basic, and all good players need to know it well :)

Some rules: (king and pawn vs king)

First you must find the key squares for your king to reach, if your pawn is on d4 and you are white, the key squares is: c6,e6 and d6 and the black king must be placed so your pawn is still alive ;)

-If your king reaches one off those key squares with the pawn intact, you have a winning position. To win you need to take control over the d8 square (we still talk about a d-pawn) to achive this your king must be placed on c7/e7, the road to control goes throug the key squares.

-To make this more easy to understand, place the white king on d5, the pawn on d4 and the blac king on d7, if black is to move white wins easy, there is no way for black to stop white's king to go to c7/e7.

 

If it's white to move the position is a easy draw, because black stops white from reaching c7/e7, if white pushes the pawn, there is one nice rule to remember, if the pawn goes silently to the sevent rank it will quen, so if we still talk about our d-pawn, your king must be on c8/e8 when white push it to d7.

 

a and h-pawns:

These pawns are a bit more easy to stop, if it's a a-pawn (white still have the pawn) the key square to reach for both sides with the king is c7, if it's a h-pawn the square is f7.

The point for white to reach c7/f7 is to take control over a8-h8.

If you are black and you reach c7/f7 and white has managed to get in front off his pawn, just let him in the corner, go from c7/f7 to c8/f8 and white cant get anny further. If white has played his pawn ahead, just go in the corner and white can't get you out.

 


by wilsonho - 4 months ago
Singapore Singapore
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 67

If you moved your king to have it in front of your pawns BEFORE moving them, you would have won.


by davidetal - 4 months ago
Tarragindi Australia
Member Since: Jan 2008
Member Points: 1178

Hi all,

There is justice is chess!!

Thank you for the comments, and especially to you, aareyes06, for the post which restored my sense of fairness in chess. I have diagrammed your analysis below and added new lines in the Movelist, which show how Black forces the win - though it takes Very accurate play. Bottom line: get your K in front of your pawn, or you end up with a draw, regardless of which file the pawn is on.

 

 


by aareyes06 - 4 months ago
San Antonio, Texas United States
Member Since: Jul 2008
Member Points: 18

howdy davidetal! 

this is a very instructive endgame!  i have to concur with clms_chess on this one...there is much to learn from this position. 

First, the key position is 41. ...Kxc5-this is a textbook draw.  this is the position that ultimately white wants to force and thinks he can force.  in order for black to win with K and P, the king will want to be in front of the pawn with the opposition. 

The first critical position would be after 39. ... c5+.  This move leads to the book draw.  39. ...c6 forces the issue to white.  40. Kc3 (40. Kd3 c5 41. PxP KxP 42. Kc3 draw) ... Kc7 41. Kd4 Kd6 (and black has the opposition) 42. Kd3 Kd5 43. Kc3 Ke4! (... c5 44. Kb3 Kd4 45. PxP KxP 46. Kc3 draw) 44. Kb3 Kd4 45. Ka3 Kc3 46. Ka2 Kxb4 and black wins. 

I'm sure there are several other possibilities in there, check them out, see if you can't find some other things.  the key point is that you want to first maneouver your king into position and then push the pawns to victory.  43. ... Ke4! is the key move of the above variation because it forces the white king backwards

37. ... Kb6 was correct, taking the opposition.

Ok, now that we have established some ideas let us look at the position after 35. Kxb2.  the response was 35. ... a5.  35. ... Kc6 36. Ke3 Kd5 37. Kd3 c5 (wrestling for the opposition) 38. b3 (38. a4 a5) ... a6 39. a4 a5 (now white looses the opposition) 40. Ke3 (40. Kc3 [.. Kc6 41. Kc4 Kd6 42. Kb5 Kc7 43. Kc4 {43. Ka6 Kc6 44. Ka7 b5 wins} ... Kd6 44. Kc3 Kd5 45. Kd3 and black has made no progress] ... Kd6 41. Kc4 Kc6 42. Kc3 b5 43. PxP+ KxP 44. Kc2 Kb4 45. Kb2 and this could be a draw) ... c4 41. Kd2 (in order to be in front of the advancing pawns) ... Kd4 42. Kc2 c3 43. Kc1 Kd3 44. Kd1 c2+ 45. Kc1 Kc3 46. b4 PxP 47. a5 b3 wins. 

The position in the notes that "could be a draw" needs more investigation.  my analysis is by no means conclusive; i'm sure there are errors.  however, the point remains, that if white wants to claim a draw, he must play very accurately for the draw is not easy to find. 

K and P endgames are fundamental.  for all chess players, regardless of skill level, proper handling is a must.  analyzing positions like these are very helpful in developing those skills. 

~aareyes06


by bastiaan - 4 months ago
eindhoven Netherlands
Member Since: Dec 2007
Member Points: 462

No I don't think it's like that. I'm sure a pawn in the middle of the board can be drawn as well. I'm not sure but it has something to do with the enemy king being in front of the pawn. There are many examples on this site.


by clms_chess - 4 months ago
Eastern United States
Member Since: Jul 2008
Member Points: 58

I have a feeling that some of the "experts" are rollong their eyes up with fingers just poised over the keyboard to type out something like.... "Why do people post such elementary questions?".

Well... I say thank you. There are a lot of people who need the refresher and probably more who need to learn these endgame principles.


by phindex - 4 months ago
Nevada United States
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 13

Hey David,

 

The issue is not K vs K+P but which pawn... if the lone pawn is on the a,b,g or h files... it is a draw.

 

 

david


 

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